Ep. 120: Art of Giving and Receiving Information

Instructors are tasked to share their knowledge and expertise with their human clients in such a way that the client can then internalize, understand and interpret that information for their dog. This is no easy task! However, it becomes close to impossible if the way this information is packaged causes the client to not want to receive it. 

In this episode, we discuss the art of giving and receiving information. Tone, facial expressions, body behavior are all important factors. Exhaustion, burnout and frustration can further complicate the situation on both sides of this divide. We must openly discuss the need to take a breath, modify and adjust our approaches the very same way we advocate when working directly with our dogs. Instructors and clients should see one another as teammates and partners, not adversaries. 

Speaker:

Dianna L. Santos

TRANSCRIPT

Dianna L. Santos (00:00):
Welcome to the All About Scent Work Podcast. In this podcast we talk about all things Scent Work that include training, dips, a behind scenes look at what your instructor or trial official is going through and much more. In this episode, I want to talk about the art of giving information and receiving information. So before we start diving into the episode itself, let me do a very quick introduction of myself. My name is Dianna Santos. I'm the Owner and Lead Instructor of Scent Work University. This is an online dog training platform where you provide online courses, seminars, webinars, and eBooks that are all centered around Scent Work. So regardless of where you are in your sniffing journey, maybe you're just getting started, you're looking to develop some more advanced skills, you're interested in competing or you're even trialing at the upper levels, we likely have a training solution for you Sash. Know a little bit more about me, let's dive into the episode itself. So in this episode I want to have a conversation about how we may be able to go about navigating the art of giving information and receiving information as it pertains to Scent Work. So basically for instructors, how we can potentially give information and then as clients, how we can receive the information so we can actually be useful and helpful for ourselves and our dogs. This is harder than it sounds.

(01:23):
I'm only going to be pulling upon my own experience as an instructor and also when I have been a client. I do not purport to be the sole authority on this. I do not think that I am the best instructor on the planet. I do not think I am the best student, just the opposite as far as a student is concerned, and we'll talk about it a little bit more in this episode, but there's actually a lot of things that I do when I'm taking instruction from someone that can make their lives very difficult and I'm very thankful for anyone who has worked with me. But I think this is an important thing for us to talk about because there are definitely times when there can be tension between an instructor and a client and there can be lots of different reasons for that. Some of it is just kind of baked into the cake because of what it is we're trying to do and it's not really a fault of either party.

(02:25):
And if we're a little bit more understanding about it, it won't grow into anything that's untenable. What do I mean? If we were just talking about someone trying to teach someone else something to do a skill as an example. I want to teach you how to do something that I know how to do well, and I have all this expertise in it and I have all this background and I want to teach you how to do this so that you can competently and comfortably do whatever. That's not an easy process at all. It's actually really complicated. But if we both speak the same language and we both have an understanding of what the goals are, it's going to increase our likelihood that we're going to get there. There may be a couple of bubbles where we just kind of miss each other or I may explain something in a certain way that just doesn't seem to make sense and I may need to reframe it as it were.

(03:27):
Okay, fine. So what's wrong with Scent Work? Well, Scent Work has all these other complicating factors included within it. Not only does an instructor have to be able to explain to the human client what it is they would like them to do, they also have to explain what it is ultimately the dog, what the goal is for the dog. And they have to explain this to the human client so the human client can internalize it, truly understand it, and then translate it to their dog. But it gets worse because in Scent Work, we're working to find a thing, a hide that's emanating odor that none of us humans can see or experience. This gets really complicated really quick, and there are things that just may seem obvious from an instructor standpoint or completely not clear at all from a client standpoint. And you're going to have conflict.

(04:27):
And by the way, the real expert of odor, the dog is just like, what's wrong with you guys? It's just all kinds of gross. I think if we come to terms with is how messy this can be, it can help a little bit, but there's another layer, and I think this is a layer where there are lots of problems, and that's just how we communicate with one another. So if we were to think about an instructor is there, they have their expertise, their book knowledge, their practical knowledge, what they've trained with their own dogs, with their clients, they shadowed with colleagues, they've done competitions, whatever the case may be, they are experienced, they are ready, and they a whole bunch of tools inside of their toolbox. Perfect. We then have the client who have their own life experiences. Maybe they aren't familiar with this type of dog training.

(05:21):
Maybe they're not familiar with Scent Work or maybe they're not familiar with this school of thought that this instructor uses or maybe they are, but they don't live and breathe it, right? And they are seeking out the help from this instructor so that they and their dogs can reach their goals. Great, right? Well, if the client is coming to the instructor looking for help and the instructor perceives the client as not actively taking on said help, you're going to have conflict. And sometimes these things can just get off on the wrong foot right away or it can maybe grow into that. And a lot of it stems from miscommunications or lack of communication altogether where there may be questions, there may be a misunderstanding about what the goals are. The instructor may have certain goals for a team and the client's like, I don't want to sign up for that.

(06:25):
Or the client has lots of different goals and the instructor either thought they wanted to do something else or doesn't think that those goals are realistic or that the path that they're on is not going to get them to those goals. But that has to be communicated and it has to be communicated in a way that the client is going to understand and receive. And this is where we get to the topic of this episode and they're like, oh geez. Finally there is something to be said when you are in an instructor client relationship that there should be a level of transparency and being direct of having very plain spoken conversations with one another. You shouldn't be sitting there working through a bunch of filters. We shouldn't be beating around the bush, right? You shouldn't sugarcoat everything. We are not there to coddle one another.

(07:27):
We're not there to baby one. Another client has hired instructor, client is paying instructor for instructor's expertise. Instructor is there to partner with client to help them get to their goals. That is all true. However, the only way that's going to be accomplished is if the information goes from instructor to client and client can use that information, but that means it has to go into their ear holes and then process inside their brain so they can actually use it. But if what's that information is packaged within the messaging, which includes tone delivery, facial expressions, body behavior, what was said before and after and all that good jazz. If all of that is packaged up in a really gross package, the client is not going to receive the information, at least not in a way that's going to be helpful and that's understandable. As an example, let's say that client is working with instructor.

(08:40):
Client's goal is to get the dog ready to compete. Instructor understands that for them to be ready to compete, the client needs to work on a couple of different handler skills. The dog is actually doing pretty well, but the handler has to work on some skills on their own including leash handling and reading their dog. So we have two sets of skills that the handler has to work on. The dog is doing pretty solid, but we got to work on these two things. If the instructor tells the client, if you just do what I told you and you used your leash the way I said, then you would be ready to trial. But because you don't, you're not ready. You're going to go in and make a mess of it. When you're ready to listen to me, maybe we'll make some progress. I think we can all agree that's not going to go real well.

(09:37):
That's not great. That packaging is terrible. Could you potentially make the argument that the words themselves as far as maybe the sentiment of if you don't work on your leash handling, you probably won't do as well at trial. Is that true? Probably. Maybe. But do we need the client to be made to feel as though there's some kind of failure so that they can work on this thing? I would argue no. Now there are going to be people who say, well, hang on a second. I've been an instructor forever in a day, and I have plenty of clients that I've been working with for a very long time, and I have tried every which way to get them to do the things they need to do, and they simply won't listen to me. So what am I supposed to do? And I hear you and you're not going to like my answer.

(10:32):
In my opinion, it's our job to figure out why that's happening. Let me give you an example completely outside of dog training altogether. I will always remember this. I was riding in the car with my husband and we were driving, I don't remember where, and he's driving along and I'm in the passenger seat and I look up and a ways away. I can see that there are deer on the side of the road and I can see that they're moving into the road. So I say deer, that's all I say. I just say deer. And he goes, what? I've never called him dear in my life. So I just go, dear, because of course saying it louder and with a sharper tone is going to provide clarity. And he goes, what? And I'm like, dear, this went on until I went, dear, dear, dear, dear, dear.

(11:28):
Like pointing and using my hands and everything else. And finally, because at this point his attention isn't on the road. His attention is on me thinking that maybe I'm having a stroke, something else is going on. And I goes, oh, whatever else. And it was fine. Nothing bad happened. But as we're driving along, he just said, why didn't you tell me? And I'm like, how many times do I need to say dear? He said, but I didn't understand what you were talking about. And I just paused for a second. I was like, but I said, dear. He's like, when do you ever say dear? Why didn't you just say there are some deer? Or it's like, just add some more words. How am I supposed to know what you meant? I was like, you know what? You're right.

(12:13):
And what was even worse is that I did the same exact thing. I don't know. A little while after that, maybe it was like a couple of months and I started it again. And luckily he kind of remembered. So he went, are you asking for me to pay attention to or is there something for me to look at? I'm like, no, no, no. There's deer up in the road. But the point being is that me becoming short, louder, frustrated, angry, even didn't make the information reach him any better, that was on me. I was not communicating in a way that made any sense in that situation. That wasn't his fault. That was my fault because now in that driving scenario, he was paying attention to the road. I happened to see deer on the side of the road very, very far up, and now his attention is split between me and the road.

(13:10):
I could have caused an accident because I'm not being clear. But again, everything was fine. The point being is that as instructors, it's our job to provide the clarity. It's our job to see does the client really understand? And if they don't, how can I help them understand? And if they're not doing what I asked them to do, that means they don't understand. Even if you think it's simply because they didn't listen, that could be true. I've been in those situations. But then take the emotion out of it. Why weren't they listening? Were they so focused on trying to manage their dog? Maybe they're there with their spouse or a family member and their attention was divided. Maybe they were still trying to process the exercise they just finished. Maybe they were talking with their classmates and they just didn't hear you. I'm not saying the clients don't have responsibility, they do, but we are the ones that have to ensure that they get it, if that makes sense.

(14:16):
And if they're not performing or they're not providing, or they're not hitting the goals that we had set out for them, that's on us. Because here's the thing, replace the human client with a dog client. And suddenly this makes so much more sense. If I was working directly with a dog and I asked them to do something and they didn't do it, or they just looked at me as say what? Or their attention was split between me and the environment, maybe they weren't comfortable. Maybe they were overwhelmed. You best believe nine out of 10 instructors, I would even argue 10 out of 10 are going to be making adjustments to ensure that dog can be successful. They're going to change what they're doing to help the dog. And they're not going to be sitting going, well, the dog should just do it. Of course not, right?

(15:10):
But when it comes to people, we suddenly make the shift. That's what I mean as far as packaging the information that we're giving that has to be done in a way so that the person can receive it. When I was just shouting out dear a million times over, just getting louder and nastier with it, my package did not reach him. I was just tossing it out the window. It was useless. But if I just simply took a breath and said, there's some deer on the road, Hey, watch out. There's some deer in the road coming up. Again, it didn't take me long to say that we could do the same thing with our clients, but what I'm very concerned about is where there's almost a badge of honor in coaching to belittle people or to be like, well, I'm giving you some straight talk. You need to have a coming to Jesus moment.

(16:11):
There's so many different ways of saying this. You and I need to have a conversation. It's like, that's not what this is supposed to be. It's taking something that is good. I'm going to provide you with objective, honest assessments. I'm not going to sugarcoat this. I'm not going to hide away from things that are issues because we want to work on those so you can get to your goals. But I'm not here to make you feel bad. That's not the goal. I don't want my clients to shrink away from me. I don't want my clients to also give me the glare of death because I've been the one to give the glare of death back. So let's talk about that real quick. I am not admittedly, and I know this very much, so I am not a good student, and these are the reasons why I am not a good student.

(17:09):
I get stuck in my head almost immediately. I am so concerned that I'm wasting the time of the instructor. I'm wasting the time of the other clients. I am overly concerned about managing my dog. I am a mess. It's just true. And on top of that, my body doesn't cooperate. My brain synapses don't tell my body what to do normally. It's just yucky. It's just not great. So I'm aware of all of this. I'm not hiding like, oh, no, no, everything kind of gross. And I try to communicate this to anyone that I do work with. Look, if you don't want to work with me, I completely get it. This is not going to be easy or fun. I'm going to try my best. I'm not trying to stress you out, but it may be a little bumpy.

(18:01):
But there have been times where I have taken classes again with good colleagues. These are not bad people by any stretch where I've been in situations, and none of this was in Scent Work. Mind you, this is all doing other things. One in particular will always stick out in my mind is we were getting ready to do something myself and my dog. And my dog was starting to do whatever is they needed to do. And I'm sitting there processing what I need to do. And the instructor was like, whenever you're ready to get started. And I just kind of looked at them. I was like, I'm sorry, I didn't know I was holding anything up. Do you want to follow your dog and maybe do your part sometime today? It's like, I'm sorry, come again. So we finished our run. I thanked them for their time.

(19:00):
I took my dog. I packed up my stuff and I left, and I never went back. And the reason being is twofold. One, it cemented my belief in my own self-hatred mind that I am wasting everyone's time, blah, blah, blah. But also, which is very odd, it kind of seems like a contradictory. I don't tolerate that kind of thing either, because I also have a very bad temper. And I'm like, I don't want this to escalate, so I'm just going to leave. And everyone was so surprised. Where are you going? Like, oh, I'm going home. Like, oh. I was like, yeah, that's an option. If something like that happens to you, you can just leave. That is always there as an availability. And this person reached out and was like, were you coming back to class? No, I'm good. And by all means, keep the money. It's a donation as it were. And best of luck.

(20:03):
The point being is that I don't think that this is a bad person. I think that they were, if I had to guess, were frustrated that I seemingly wasn't doing what they had wanted me to do, but that wasn't being communicated, the information wasn't being provided to me in a way that I could receive it. At no point as instructors, in my opinion, unless someone is being abusive to their dogs, should we ever get into that kind of situation? That's not coaching, that's not helping, that's not supporting, that's not being a team member that's belittling someone. And yes, there could be lots of reasons why someone may have a shorter fuse. And my answer to that is it doesn't matter. I mean, truly, let's just go through this super quick. The world has been a little bit of a chaotic place, particularly over the last couple of years.

(21:04):
Everyone is going through a lot. I don't know anyone who is just skating by and just doing a fantastic, no one is living in this world of bed of roses and unicorns and lollipops. It's pretty dark for everybody. Everyone's exhausted. Everyone is going through all kinds of tragedies all the time. Everyone has life. When we choose to be instructors, we are choosing to work with people. And in that role, we are choosing to have a role that requires us to be providing information to our clients. We don't get to just go off the handle having a bad day in my opinion. Also, clients do not have this privilege either. You are choosing to spend your money to hire someone to help you and your dog. You're not paying to abuse this person. Can you see what I'm talking about here? That if we have this expectation on either side of this, that instructors can just bark instructions at their clients and say, just do what I said, and clients can then bark back at their instructors, well, it didn't work, but there's no real communication going on.

(22:33):
It's a huge problem. What I'm trying to advocate for is recognizing what it is the goals are and how we may be able to get there, knowing that there may be some bobs, there are going to be bobs, and there may even be a situation that for no fault of anyone, the two of you just may miss each other. And I've had this happen in my career where myself and clients have tried very, very hard to get to wherever it is their goal was and it wasn't working. I would try different exercises or maybe it wasn't an exercise, maybe it was a way I was explaining it. And I try to explain it one way, two ways, three ways, four ways. And they are trying their best on their end. I'm sending the information and they're not grabbing onto the package. I'm giving the information and they can't receive it.

(23:33):
And I'm trying. I'm trying, trying. And they know I am, and they're trying so hard, and I know that they're trying. And that's when I reach out to a colleague and say, Hey, you know what? Me and this client are just on different wavelengths. This is what I'm seeing that maybe they and their dog needs. Do you mind coming in and helping? We can either tag team this or I can refer them to you. And this has happened a handful of times. And those clients did indeed find colleagues that they were able to connect with and they were able to work with, and they were so appreciative, and they all referred more clients to me, which the first time it happened was very surprising. It's like, oh, okay. That's nice. I thought maybe you would not refer anyone to me. But that's the point, is understanding what this really is. And my goal as an instructor, my hope is to always help. And I may not be the best one to help you. Someone else may be a better fit, but it's all about how the information is provided and the tact that we take. And because I've been on both sides of this, and as a student, as a client, I know that I bring a lot of baggage to the situation.

(25:03):
I know what it's like to work with someone who is extraordinarily patient and is very kind, but is still honest. That's possible. You're able to reach that kind of happy medium, and it's so incredibly appreciated because it's exhausting. It really, really is. I'll just tell another quick story, quick. It has nothing to do with our, my father was amazing at math. He was incredible at it. I am terrible with math, absolutely terrible. Me in numbers. We do not like one another. So when I was a child, he would be sitting there trying to help me with my math homework. And this is again, after working all day, and he's tired, he's grumpy, but he's trying his best. And I'm sitting there going, I don't want to make him upset. I don't want to be wasting his time. I just want the words that he's saying to somehow magically soak into my brain. And maybe that would work. It's not, but that's my hope.

(26:10):
And there was one of these sessions that he's trying, and he is just beyond, he's like, I just don't know why this doesn't make sense to you. And he finally just stopped. And he's like, you saying, yes, you understand when you don't, doesn't help. I said, but I don't want to make you upset. And he just sighed and just drooped his whole body. And he was a very large man, and nothing else was said after that point. But looking back on it, there was such a disappointment in himself. He wanted to fix this, right? He desperately wanted to make what he felt was very, very easy. This is a very simple mathematics problem. Why can't I get her to do this? I understand this. Why can't I help her understand this? And he never did. Poor guy. But that's how I think a lot of instructors feel of they have all of this history around what they're doing.

(27:18):
They may not even remember that a given explanation or a knowledge point or a exercise that there's actually a million little individual knowledge pieces that make up that thing to them, is just really all that's assumed. But the client doesn't know that stuff. And he's like, no, just do this. And the client just looks at you with that blank stare of, I have no idea what you're talking about. And it's not that they don't want to know. They do, but they don't have all that mountain of knowledge underneath it. And you can just see the instructors kind of slump be like, why don't you get this? It's like, because they don't have all these other things. Is there any way that you could break this down into smaller pieces? Could you provide maybe the other information first? What can you do to help them understand?

(28:13):
And that it's not a failure for you as an instructor right now, but if you just keep banging your head against that wall, then it kind of is. So I hope that makes sense, that having throughout my life been on the receiving end of people be like, why don't you just get this? And also myself, I am very, very hard on myself. Why don't I understand this yet? It's like you've been trying to figure this out for two seconds. Of course you don't know it, but when I see that in my clients, I get so my heart breaks. It's like, you are not going to know this right out of the gate. Let's take forests example. Let's take someone trying to learn how to handle their long line for the very first time. It is just a mess, right? If they've only ever held onto a leash, and now you hand them a long line, they're like, wait a minute.

(29:12):
Where does everything go? And somehow I'm supposed to follow my dog. And where is this hand supposed to go? And what about the slack? And wait a minute, my dog stepped on the slack and now they're getting all tangled. I'm supposed to be able to reach for my treats and what's happening. It is stressful. So that's why for myself, I encourage clients to try to take this out of the search to start with. Recognize what this is. This is a mechanical skill. You just being able to hold onto the long line, which hand is going to be holding onto the part that's going towards the dog, and which hand is going to be holding onto the slack? Play with it. Which one is more comfortable? Okay? Once you figure that piece out, how are you going to figure out how to lengthen the line to feed it out?

(30:06):
And how are you going to figure out how to make it shorter to reel it in? We should be practicing this mechanical skill, in my opinion, away from our dogs. Attach your long line. I love the suggestion that Michael and Natalie McManus had. Attach it to a fence. Attach it to a gate that you have in your home. I've done it where I have it around the doorknob of a door and literally just spend some time, couple minutes every day just practicing this, walking backwards and forwards and sideways and all these things, and then incorporate, I have a tree pouch on and I have a cup balancing on a table somewhere. I'm going to pretend that the cup is my dog and I'm going to be practicing figuring out what to do with my hands and then reach in, grab a tree and deliver it to the cup.

(30:58):
So on and so on and so on. But the point being is instead of me as an instructor in the middle of a search, either trying to bark all this to my client as they're doing a search or being like, why is your leash handling such trash? How is that helping anyone? And from the client perspective, making certain that you are able to receive that information instead of just taking everything personally, which again, I'm very good at doing. Again, terrible student, don't do the things. I do recognize that this person that you hired, whether it's through a class, privates, whatever the case may be, they're supposed to be your teammate. They're supposed to be there to help you, but you are not perfect. No one is. They're there to help you be better. They're there to help your dog be better. But in order to be better, we have to recognize where our strengths are and where our weaknesses are. And everyone has both. It doesn't make you a bad person or a bad handler or a bad dog owner if you need to work on something, in my opinion, I think it makes you a better dog owner and dog handler when you're working on things because you're being honest and you're trying to grow. That's a good thing. If you walk everywhere, it's like, yeah, I am the best. I have questions.

(32:26):
But that's what really trying to get through with this podcast episode. It's so rambly, is that I think that we get ourselves into trouble if from the instructor standpoint, we take some pride in, I'm going to be telling people that they're terrible. That's what coaching is. In my opinion, that's not what coaching is. Or from the client standpoint, I'm perfect and you better not say anything bad about me. You're literally hiring someone to help you get better. So I hope this makes some sense that I think where there are tensions between instructors and clients and just dog training, if we think about how the information is packaged and then how we are prepared to receive it can help a lot. So I think if we recognize that this is probably going to be even more complicated than other types of dog training or other kinds of dog sports because of what we are doing.

(33:25):
We're working with the odor, a thing that you and I cannot see as people. So it adds another layer of complexity to this whole thing. But I hope this kind of sort of makes sense, that if we're just mindful about how we are giving the information, we think about tact, we think about tone, we think about body posture and body language. And maybe before we even give the information, replace the client with the dog and think, would I do this if I was just working with the dog? Would I take this approach? Would I feel this way if I was just working with the dog? And if the answer is no, then maybe you should think about adjusting what it is that you're going to do. And for my fellow colleagues, very quickly, I promise burnout is a very real thing. If you find yourself that you are dreading doing sessions, you're dreading going to class, there's certain clients, you're like, oh, I just don't want to talk to you.

(34:33):
Whatever the case may be, maybe you're being short. Maybe you find that your fuse is just about to explode all the time. Those are all signs. If something is wrong, yes, I know that many of us do this for a living. Yes, I know this is a hustle, but because we are in our profession, we're trying to help people, we can ruin the whole thing that we're doing. You can kill a whole business depending on how we're interacting with our clients. You're only human and life is affecting you too. Teaching as you all very well know. But this will maybe be news to the other listeners who are students. Teaching is exhausting. It is a very giving type of profession. And I know for myself, and I've known from colleagues that I've talked to, you are drained after you teach. And many of my colleagues are doing this nonstop.

(35:36):
They're teaching a whole string of classes, then they're doing privates, then they're officiating, then they're doing webinars or seminars or workshops. Then they're right back to teaching classes again. And that's not sustainable. Not only do you also need time for yourself, for your family, for anything else, maybe it would be nice for you to do stuff with your own dog, but you also just need time to decompress, to not be giving, to Also take a moment to assess like, okay, these are some of the things that I've been doing. This is some of the coaching I've been providing. I've also been observing that whole time. You have been learning as you're teaching. You've seen what's worked. I've explained A, B, C, and everyone got it, but then I explained H, I, J and I got a lot of blank stares taking time to really think about that.

(36:39):
We can then come up with different ways of putting that information together, or we may recognize that, hey, I need to make some other adjustments. So really just maybe use this episode as a way of looking like, do I need to take a break? Do I need to make some adjustments? And you have my permission to do that because I don't take my own advice. But it is absolutely something that we should definitely think about. And for clients, the same applies for you truly. I don't know of many clients who are not going a million miles a minute. Whew, you guys are doing frankly too much, way too much. Really take a look at your calendars and just appreciate what you and your dogs are doing on top of working, having a life, having family, having life happen to you. Again, it sometimes can just be too much, and that can make it so that you can't receive the information.

(37:40):
Your brain's like, I'm full. I can't do it right now. And then you're going to end up with those tension points again. So I hope that this was somewhat helpful. I don't know if it is, but I think that it's an important thing for us to think about is from instructors, how we can properly package the information so that it is received. And then also recognizing what do we doing for ourselves to ensure that we can make a pretty package or the materials available to us because we're so burnt out and everything else is just, and then for clients, what we can do to ensure we can receive that information. Same thing. Are we in a good state of mind to do this? Are we having realistic goals? All that good jazz? But as always, I would love to hear from all of you, what are your thoughts about this topic? You're like, oh my goodness, this episode went on so long. It was a ramble. I didn't

(38:34):
Know what were talking about. Or maybe there was something helpful and worthwhile. I hope so. Please let me know. We'll be posting this episode up on our website as well as our social media. We're also going to be continuing our Spotlight series. So if you know of an individual or a business that's giving back to the Scent Work community, please let me know. I want to talk to them. The more we're able to spread some positivity, the better. I want to thank you also very much for listening. Please give a cookie to your puppies for me, happy training. We look forward to seeing you soon.